Almost as much as flowers, fruit, and butterflies, the signs of the zodiac are leading choices for modern cosmetics collections and beauty inspiration.  As a new sign season (Taurus) descends today, I thought it would be an appropriate time to provide a visual history of zodiac beauty and trace the ebb and flow of its popularity in the U.S.  As we'll see, the two main components of this particular category (zodiac-themed packaging and beauty tips/makeup looks based on one's sign) and the reasons behind their prevalence at certain times really haven't changed much in the past 100 years. 

The story arguably begins in the late 1600s in Europe, when British satire poet Samuel Butler suggested that women used beauty patches to indicate their sun sign.  As Aileen Ribeiro explains in Facing Beauty, "According to astrology, certain areas of the face were governed by the signs of the zodiac – Capricorn the chin, Aquarius the left eye, and so on – so that patches placed on the face could echo this respectable link, this time equating such sites with emotions related to love and sexual invitation; this game, perhaps not taken seriously by women at least, was played well into the eighteenth century."While I'd love to delve deeper to see if there were any other horoscope beauty mentions prior to then and between the 1700s to the 1900s, I've accepted that I need to fast forward to the modern beauty era.  The zodiac-based beauty advice that appears in nearly every online fashion publication nowadays has its roots in the 1920s, when an "authority on beauty"/astrology student declared that "the planets will guide one in using cosmetics" at the American Cosmetician's Society convention.

News article on zodiac beauty -Aug_17__1928_
(image from newspapers.com)

Zodiac beauty remained relatively obscure in the '30s and '40s.  Poudre d'Orsay's use of the zodiac for its face powder containers remains a mystery.  As far as I know it did not appear anywhere else in their line of powders and perfumes. Perhaps it's a reference to a detail on a historic building, much like the graphics on Cedib's Arc de Triomph powder, but that's just speculation.

Poudre d'Orsay, 1930s

The May 1, 1941 issue of Vogue featured a shop that sold an "all-purpose" cream with ingredients based not on one's skin needs but their zodiac sign.  This is possibly the first zodiac-specialized beauty product in the modern era.

Vogue, May 1941
(image from archive.vogue.com)

As compact sales grew exponentially in the '30s and '40s, zodiac-themed cases offered an alternative to monogramming in terms of customization.

Canadian-compacts-Dec_19__1936_
(image from newspapers.com)

The short-lived Ziegfeld Girls brand launched lucite zodiac compacts in 1946, which you can read more about here.

Ziegfeld Girls Scorpio zodiac compact, 1946

Why this Scorpio compact included a brochure for Capricorn I don't know, but it's interesting to see.

Ziegfeld Girls Capricorn zodiac brochure

Just two years later Elgin American got in on the zodiac compact game by introducing their "Zany Zodiac" line.  The illustrations and rhymes were devised by Stan MacNiel, a Scotsman and former British army captain.  He was quite the character and I encourage you to check out my post on him and the Elgin line.

Elgin American Virgo zodiac compact, ca. 1948

Advertising for both the Ziegfeld Girls and Elgin American compacts emphasize the individualization aspect of the zodiac.  Despite the millions of people that share the same sign, zodiac compacts were "all about you" and "individually styled."

Elgin American zodiac ad, March 1948

Ziegfeld-girls-ad-Mar_25__1946_
(images from newspapers.com)

As monogrammed compacts gradually became less popular by the mid-20th century, so too did those bearing individual signs.  A shift towards including all twelve symbols became more common.

Volupte Golden Gesture, ca. 1947-1950

Zodiac-themed compacts from the '50s though the early '70s tended to include all the sun signs.

Vintage zodiac compacts

Clockwise from top left: unmarked Scorpio compact (1950s), Max Factor (1971), Zenette (ca. 1950s), Wadsworth (ca. early 1950s), Kigu (ca. 1950s-70s), Stratton (1969), Le Rage (1950s)

The late 1960s, with its tumultuous social revolution and economic and political uncertainty, is when the astrology craze firmly took hold in American culture.  This in turn led to not only zodiac-themed collections but a slew of beauty horoscopes.

House of Danilov zodiac soap, Vogue November 1967

These pre-date Fresh's zodiac soaps by nearly 50 years!

House of Danilov zodiac soaps ad, Feb_7__1968(image from newspapers.com)

Tussy My Sign fragrance, ca. 1969
(image from ebay)

Sears Upbeat zodiac lipsticks ad, Aug_20__1969_

Flori Roberts debuted what might have been the first zodiac-inspired line for black women in 1973.

Flori Roberts zodiac line, 1973(images from newspapers.com)

Actress Arlene Dahl, who had been penning beauty horoscopes since 1963, published her "Beauty Scope" books in 1969.  I need to get my hands on a couple copies but in the meantime check out this blogger's review.

Arlene Dahl Beauty Scope book, 1969
(image from amazon)

Not to be outdone, modeling agency founder John Robert Powers and beauty columnist Jennifer Anderson followed suit.

Beauty horoscope by Jennifer-Anderson, Dec_31__1972_(image from newspapers.com)

Some beauty companies took a different, less labor-intensive route than producing and marketing zodiac-themed collections:  they began recommending products from their existing lineup for each sign.

Yardley Slicker Scope ad, 1969(image from capricornonevintage on flickr)

Estée Lauder beauty horoscope recommendations, January 1969

Estée Lauder beauty horoscope recommendations, January 1969(images from newspapers.com)

As the astrology fad waned in the mid-late '70s, due in part to scientist killjoys, so too did zodiac beauty.  Save for this 1978 Maybelline ad, I was hard pressed to find any other zodiac-themed makeup until the mid '80s.

Maybelline-zodiac

Zodiac beauty got a little boost during the greed-is-good era, when makeup artist Linda Mason published a book entitled Sun Sign Makeovers in 1985.  Like Dahl's series, the book offered specific beauty tips and makeup looks for each sign.  Just a couple years afterwards,  Mason released her own line of astrology-inspired makeup called Elements, some of which can still be purchased today (with different packaging).  There was a "moodkit" for each sign and specialized kits for eyes, cheeks and lips. By the way, in looking these up and learning more about Mason I discovered that her work is exactly one of the main things the Museum is intended for: the intersection of art and makeup.  If travel is ever remotely safe again I'm definitely going to check out her store/art gallery in Soho, it sounds dreamy!  It's literally called The Art of Beauty.

Linda Mason Sun Signs Makeover book
(image from lindamasonprofessional.com)

Linda Mason Elements(image from picuki.com)

Maybelline also tried to re-ignite the zodiac beauty flame in 1988 with individual eyeshadows. First lady Nancy Reagan regularly consulted an astrologer during her husband's tenure, a fact made public that same year, so perhaps this news snippet isn't too far off base.  (The shades are listed above in a separate clip for reference.)

Maybelline zodiac eyeshadows 1988
(image from newspapers.com)

The '90s and early 2000s experienced a resurgence of zodiac-themed beauty.  Nostalgia for '60s counterculture (in which the fascination with astrology played a big role) as well as the renewed interest in customized beauty products were the major drivers of the trend.  While Estée Lauder's compacts – another you can still buy today! – were geared more towards adults, many zodiac-themed products seemed to be intended for teens.

Estée Lauder zodiac compact ad, 1996
(image from ebay)

Vogue November 1997(image from archive.vogue.com)

Coco Loco zodiac lipsticks and nail polishes, 1997

Estée Lauder zodiac compacts

Left: Erté compact (2004); top: zodiac compact (2000); right: zodiac compact (1996)

Zodiac nail polishes by Tuff Scentence, Mademoiselle magazine July 1998

Has anyone ever heard of Scotty Ferrell?  I could not find a single other reference to him anywhere.

SScotty Ferrell zodiac lipsticks, Aug_30__2000_(image from newspapers.com)

Skinmarket Astrogloss, ca. 2001
(image from sickmalls.wordpress.com)

Demonstrating that beauty trends are cyclical, the zodiac fad waned again in the late aughts and early 2010s.  But around rumblings began in 2015 with Fresh's zodiac soaps and crescendoed to a roar by 2018.  Both Fresh and Bite borrowed a page from Flori Roberts and collaborated with noted astrologers for their collections – Susan Miller in the case of Fresh and Tara Greene for Bite.

Zodiac beauty items

Wet n Wild (summer 2018), Fresh Sugar lip balm (fall 2018), Colourpop x Kathleen Lights zodiac eyeshadow palette (summer 2018) and single eyeshadows (summer 2019), Missha cushion compact (ca. 2018), Bite Beauty Scorpio lipstick (fall 2018), The Creme Shop sheet mask (fall 2018)

But wait, there's more!  These are the ones not in the Museum's collection but still worth a mention.  The Milk Makeup zodiac stamps are a thoroughly modern twist on the beauty patches idea from several centuries ago, no?  When applied on the face I'd imagine they'd look like beauty marks, albeit ones with a highly specific design.

Zodiac beauty products

  1.   Julep zodiac nail polish, fall 2016
  2.   Milk Makeup Astrology tattoo stamps, fall 2018
  3.   Revolution Beauty My Sign eyeshadow palette, 2017
  4.   Demeter Fragrance Library Zodiac Collection, 2016-2017
  5.   BH Cosmetics Zodiac palette, fall 2017
  6.   NCLA zodiac nail polish, 2016

Besides beauty tips and products, the increased usage of social media meant that by 2018 Instagram makeup artists were sharing some very elaborate zodiac looks.

Zodiac makeup looks by Setareh Hosseini
(image from demilked.com)

Zodiac makeup by Kimberly Money
(image from mymodernmet.com)

Lest you think these not-so-wearable looks are solely the creation of 21st century influencers, here's a 1984 Australian beauty pageant where contestants were challenged to come up with the most over-the-top "fantasy" zodiac makeup.

Zodiac beauty pageant Aug_27__1984_(image from newspapers.com)

The packaging and design of all of these objects and looks are interesting in their own right, but why does zodiac makeup trend more at certain times?  And why is it experiencing what may be the peak of popularity during the past 2 years?  There are several reasons. First, zodiac-themed beauty tends to follow a wider cultural interest in astrology and New Age practices more generally (crystals, tarot cards, etc.).  Businesses are always eager to profit from the latest fad, and the beauty industry is no exception.  The "mystical and psychic services market" was worth $2.2 billion in 2019 according to this trend forecaster.  As Saffron of the Beauty Critic points out, astrology-themed makeup fits within the broader context of New Age/occult-inspired beauty and wellness products we're seeing now as a result.  And in the Age of Aquarius, companies introduced hundreds of zodiac-themed products. Linda Goodman's 1968 Sun Signs was the first book on astrology to become a New York Times bestseller; by 1971, astrology was a $200 million dollar a year business in the U.S.2 Even Dali got in on the action.

Stratton zodiac compact, 1969

The interest in astrology points to larger societal shifts and is driven primarily by younger generations just as it was some 50 years ago.3   Millennials and Generation Z are reporting higher rates of stress than older generations, and are increasingly turning to astrology and other New Age phenomena to cope.  As the Atlantic explained in 2018, "According to American Psychological Association survey data, since 2014, Millennials have been the most stressed generation, and also the generation most likely to say their stress has increased in the past year since 2010. Millennials and Gen Xers have been significantly more stressed than older generations since 2012. And Americans as a whole have seen increased stress because of the political tumult since the 2016 presidential election. The 2017 edition of the APA’s survey found that 63 percent of Americans said they were significantly stressed about their country’s future. Fifty-six percent of people said reading the news stresses them out, and Millennials and Gen Xers were significantly more likely than older people to say so. Lately that news often deals with political infighting, climate change, global crises, and the threat of nuclear war. If stress makes astrology look shinier, it’s not surprising that more seem to be drawn to it now."  Case in point: this "stress-busting" insert from a recent Sephora Play! box detailing what beauty products will help with relaxation based on one's sign.

Sephora Play! box zodiac insert

The decline of organized religion and the expansion of the Internet's capabilities are also factors in astrology's revival.3  In 1972 one journalist cited two key reasons for the surge in astrology's rise:  "fear in an uncertain time and the failure of orthodox religion to give meaning to problems."4  The same can be said for today's environment.  Jessica Roy, writing for the L.A. Times in 2019, details the shift away from traditional religion and the resulting turn towards astrology.  "Today, young people still seek the things that traditional organized religion may have provided for their parents or grandparents: religious beliefs, yes, but also a sense of community, guidance, purpose and meaning. But it can be hard for young people to find those things in their parents’ religions. So they’re looking elsewhere.  On top of that, a lot of younger people feel alienated by mainstream religion — by attitudes toward LGBTQ people and women, by years of headlines about scandals and coverups, or by the idea that anyone who isn’t part of that religion is inherently bad or wrong…Before the internet, people who held beliefs outside the mainstream — religious, political or otherwise — lacked a public way to connect with one another. With social media, divinatory practices like astrology, crystals and tarot have been able to take up space in a public conversation. It helps that they all look great on Instagram…Young people have grown up contending with a major recession, climate change and a more general awareness of seeing a political and economic system that many feel hasn’t benefited them, so it’s not surprising that they’re pushing back against those systems at the same time they’re exploring nontraditional religious beliefs and finding ways to integrate it all." 

Kigu zodiac compact

As for modern technology, the New Yorker further lays out how the Internet and social media allowed astrology to be more accessible and at a much faster pace than before.  "[Astrology] promises to get to answers more quickly. For centuries, drawing an astrological chart required some familiarity with astronomy and geometry. Today, a chart can be generated instantly, and for free, on the Internet. Astrology is ubiquitous on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, and in downloadable workshops, classes, and Webinars. A new frontier has opened with mobile apps."  While the Internet has radically changed, well, everything, in 1970 some of the first computers were being used to generate horoscopes, with companies pouring millions into new technology just as they are now for the same reason – increased speed of delivery to meet demand.

The_Record_Sun__Aug_2__1970_(image from newspapers.com)

The second major factor in zodiac beauty's ubiquity is customization.  Consumers like to think they're getting a product made or intended just for them.  Customization in beauty is trending more heavily than ever before, from nearly every company offering engraving services to personal consultation apps.  And astrology is a fairly simple way to advertise a seemingly individualized product.  In an interview with WWD, Fresh's chief marketing officer highlighted the trend of "customization and personalization" in the industry.  She also noted that "the collaboration was particularly successful in China, which she attributed to Chinese Millennials and their obsession with the zodiac."  It's a great point about Chinese zodiac beauty products as there's been an equally explosive rise in lunar new year-themed beauty products in the past few years, many of them depicting the animal corresponding to the year.  (See also Shiseido's Chinese zodiac figurines.)5 I think the growing interest in C-beauty is also partially responsible.

Chinese New Year beauty 2020 (year of the rat)

The customized aspect of zodiac-themed beauty parallels the personalization options in astrology and other New Age trends. One doesn't have to become a certified astrologer to enjoy horoscopes; they can pick and choose whatever suits them. Roy again: "[Millennials] dabble, they find what they like, they take what works for them and leave the rest…spiritual practices appeal to the commitment-wary: You can get a little into crystals or astrology or tarot, or a lot into it. You can buy a few rose quartzes or light a few candles and if it’s meaningful for you, keep it; if not, it’s not like you went through a full religious conversion."

As noted earlier, another time that was popular for customization was the "golden age" of compacts in the '40 and '50s, where many were engraved as personalized gifts or event keepsakes.  Some were even designed with spaces specifically to add monograms.  Perhaps that explains why two major compact manufacturers decided to add to their repertoire with zodiac lines.

Ziegfeld Girls zodiac compacts, 1946

Finally, on a more basic level, the visual appeal of zodiac imagery is fairly irresistible.  There are as many different ways to depict zodiac signs as there are artists.  Whether it's the caricatures illustrated by Stan MacNiel for Elgin, the refined style of Poudre d'Orsay, or the minimalist approach taken by Demeter, even if customers aren't astrology fans the designs will draw them in.  In looking at the Museum's zodiac collection one would suspect I obsessively read horoscope predictions and plan my life around the alignments of stars and planets, but I'm actually not into astrology. I check out my horoscope from time to time just for fun, but the reality is that I collect zodiac makeup mostly because I enjoy looking at the artwork. The fact that it's prominent in makeup history and belongs in a museum is, admittedly, simply an added bonus. The otherworldly nature of the creatures and constellations combined with the twelve symbol structure satisfies both the imagination and the need for orderliness. Plus as a former art history major, it's fascinating to see different artists' takes on the zodiac.

What object here is your favorite?  Would you ever try a makeup look or product based on your sign?

 

1Aileen Ribeiro, Facing Beauty, Yale University Press, 2011, p. 132.

2Barbara Holsopple, "A Longing for Things to Be Put Right", Pittsburgh Press, April 4, 1971.

3It's out of print, but if you're interested I bet this book is great if you're looking specifically for a cultural history of astrology. Or at least, it was the only one I could find.

4Mary Turczyn, "What is the Occult?", Fond du Lac Commonwealth Reporter, March 22, 1972.  She adds, "In a poll taken in 1967, 57% said that religion was losing its influence on American life.  With religion no longer the bulwark of society, people seek answers in other areas and astrology has rallied as one of these."

5For the purposes of expediency and so as not to be all over the place I chose to focus on the modern, Western zodiac rather than exploring the Chinese zodiac in beauty products.  I do wonder how far back it goes…I'm envisioning powder containers hundreds of years old in the shape of dragons and other Chinese zodiac animals.  Must research!

I've always been fascinated with the zodiac, so I'm drawn to any products that feature the 12 signs.  And obviously since I love makeup I have a special affinity for compacts with zodiac imagery.  There's also something deeper going on – perhaps because of my ever-present need to create order out of the cluttered chaos that is my brain, I like anything calendar-related, whether it's the 12 months of the year or the 12 zodiac signs.  Twelve is such a nice neat number, and each month or zodiac sign signifies a particular time of year, making it easy to recognize its passage.  And January seems like a good a time to talk about the 12 months/zodiac signs as they all start in January.  But enough of my ramblings and onto a very cool find.  I stumbled across this while looking for vintage compacts for my own personal use (more on that next week). 

Elgin American Zodiac compacts - Aquarius

I liked the strange cartoon character representing the Aquarius sign and thought the little rhyme on the back of the compact was genius.  I also appreciated both the traditional zodiac symbol above the rhyme and the corresponding element (water, earth, wind, fire) beneath – such great details.  But what really caught my eye was the artist's signature on the lower right.  I definitely wanted to see more work by this S. MacNiel, and I also wanted to find out how he ended up doing these illustrations for Elgin.

Elgin American Zodiac compacts - Aquarius(images from etsy.com)

I set about finding as many images of these compacts as I could. Here's Aries:

Elgin American Zodiac compacts - Aries
(image from onegiantyardsale.com

Taurus:

Elgin American Zodiac compacts - Taurus

Elgin American Zodiac compacts - Taurus
(images from worthpoint.com)

Gemini:

Elgin American Zodiac compacts - Gemini(image from onegiantyardsale.com)

Cancer:

Elgin American Zodiac compacts - Cancer

Elgin American Zodiac compacts - Cancer
(image from worthpoint.com)

Leo:

Elgin American zodiac compact - Leo

Elgin American zodiac compact - Leo(images from ebay.com)

Virgo:

Elgin American Zodiac compacts - Virgo

Elgin American Zodiac compacts - Virgo
(images from worthpoint.com)

Libra – no pictures of the back, but the seller included the rhyme:  "Libra people love nice things/Lollypops and diamonds rings/ They're happiest when they have bought/A lot of stuff they hadn't ought."

Elgin American Zodiac compacts - Libra(image from ebay.co.uk)

I couldn't find a photo of the actual compact, but here's an ad from a Pittsburgh newspaper from May 7, 1948 for Scorpio – based on the ad copy, they were playing these up as a Mother's Day gift.  What I was confused about is why these were advertised in 1948 and the date near MacNiel's signature on the compact is 1940.

Elgin American Zodiac compact ad - Scorpio
(image from news.google.com)

I was determined to reconcile the dates, so I went digging in search of information on man of mystery S. MacNiel.  I found out the S. stands for Stanley, and MacNiel was a Scotsman who traveled the world but ended up in New York City.  In 1940 he published a book of cocktail recipes based on zodiac signs.  This wood-bound book fetches hundreds of dollars at various auction sites.  The cover image is bizarre, but I have to admit quite creative.  Grapes for hair, orange slices for ears, lemons for eyes, cherry nostrils, and I particularly love the way the cocktail glass becomes her mouth.

Stanley MacNiel, Zodiac Cocktails

I can't believe he mentions Mussolini as a Leo of note.  Uhh…

Stanley MacNiel, Zodiac Cocktails
(images from read-em-again.com)

The book might not have been strange at all if our buddy Stan was a known author and artist, but he didn't seem to have a defined career.  He was described as a "lecturer and leader of the Ambassadors of Good Cheer," whatever that is. (I googled and didn't find much – may have been something alcohol-related.)  The book's introduction doesn't give much of an idea of what he actually did for a living either.  MacNiel says, "For twenty years I was a Vagabond Cocktail Collector. During those years of travel I found great interest in the native foods and beverages of the countries I visited.  If a native beverage, of whatever concoction, was palatable to me, I acquired the recipe.  Thus, after several trips around the world, 'wining', and 'dining', I began to feel sufficiently well-acquainted with cocktails and other drinks from the four corners of the globe to tell others about them."  So he's very well-traveled, but what did he actually do?  How did he get into illustration and design?  I do like the title of "vagabond cocktail collector" though.  That must have been a pretty sweet gig.

Anyway, equally peculiar was MacNiel's creation of a very ornate jeweled brooch in the shape of the head of the "fruit lady" that appears on his cocktail book's cover.  I don't know why the patent spells his name incorrectly. I also have no idea why he made this piece of jewelry. 

Stanley MacNiel - cocktail lady brooch

Stanley MacNiel jeweled brooch

Stanley MacNiel - brooch patent(images from trifari.com)

The brooch (a.k.a. a "fur clip" – fancy!) was apparently sold at Saks in New York and, like MacNiel's book, sells for hundreds of dollars.

So that's interesting, but what does all this have to do with the compacts?  And what about the fact that the book was released in 1940 and the compacts seemingly weren't released until 1948?  Well, here's the connection: the same rhymes that appear on the back of the compacts are in the book under each sign.  The illustrations are different but the rhymes are the same.  Compare the rhyme at the bottom of this page with the Virgo compact above.

Stanley MacNiel, Zodiac Cocktails
(image from winkbooks.net)

So my best guess is that he patented everything in 1940 (see his copyright for "Zodiac Humor" that year) and in 1948 allowed use of his illustrations and rhymes for the compacts, so they weren't created specifically for Elgin.  Also, he lent his work not only to Elgin, but to several other endeavors as well: tiles (that could be used as trivets or wall decorations), cocktail glasses and napkins.  This article in a Brooklyn newspaper from April 15, 1948 sheds a little light on the various zodiac collections, but still doesn't explain what Mr. MacNiel did for a living other than he was a "man of varied careers".  It does mention that he once hiked across the entire U.S. in 90 days and took credit for introducing mens' shorts as casual wear in the States.  Near as I can figure, given these facts and his seemingly endless globe-trotting, he was simply a nomadic (possibly often drunk) jack of all trades who wasn't content doing one thing or being in one place very long.  (Why is his name is spelled wrong again?) 

Brooklyn Daily Eagle article on Stanley MacNiel, 1948
(image from newspapers.com)

Additionally, it looks like in 1953 MacNiel licensed his images to be used for a set of mugs produced by a ceramics company called Rossini Japan. 

Stanley MacNiel - zodiac mug(image from ebay.com)

I also searched for some tiles in hopes of unearthing more images that would have appeared on the compacts, and I found some I couldn't find in compact form:  Sagittarius, Scorpio and Pisces. 

Tile by Stanley MacNiel - Sagittarius and Scorpio(image from liveauctioneers.com)

Tile by Stanley MacNiel - Pisces(image from pinterest.com)

For the life of me though, sadly I couldn't find any images of Capricorn.  I guess 11 out of 12 isn't bad, but that's going to drive me crazy.  Hopefully one will surface eventually.

While I've figured out the release date of the compacts and a little more about the person behind the illustrations, I'm still not sure how the collaboration came about, i.e. whether MacNiel approached Elgin or the other way around.  I also wonder whether he was an Aquarius, since the character for that sign seems to be Scottish (given the kilt and bagpipes) and is labeled as the "Connoisseur" while examining a drink in his hand.  We know MacNiel was Scottish and considered himself a cocktail expert, since he mentions mixing "thousands" of drinks as research for his book, so perhaps the Aquarius fellow is meant to be a self-caricature.  Unfortunately I can't find a date of birth anywhere for him.  But overall, I was pleased with my detective work and I love these compacts, silly and cartoonish though they are.  And MacNiel sounds like a hoot – I would have loved to have a drink with him. 

What do you think of these?  My collector's itch is definitely acting up and wants me to start hunting down all of them…if I ever come across a Scorpio one I'm going to pounce for sure!